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EtPP: Pagan Ethics


This discussion is about Exploring the Pagan Path and pagan ethics. The book includes topics such as the Wiccan Rede as well as only performing magic on those who consent.


TexasMadness wrote:

I felt it [the book] was very heavy on Wicca. The book description made it sound like it evenly dealt with Norse, Druid and other paths but they were either 'honorable mentions' or entirely missing. I'm not faulting the authors - I do think Wicca is the strongest influence in the pagan community, but not being Wiccan, I always appreciate more about other paths. One of the reasons I felt it was so heavy on Wicca was because several authors spoke of the Rede as a pagan UNIVERSAL law - it most certainly is not (Heathenism being a notable exception). I tend to have certain issues with the Rede.

...

I had issues with some of the broad concept of chapter 5, "Magical Manifestations of Energy Work." While I thought the chapter was actually rather good, I found myself annoyed about the issue of consent. What I mean is, he speaks about how you should only perform magic on those who have consented. But lists as an example that magic can be used for broad purposes like helping the general population have more religious tolerance. I find these two statements at odds. And it got me thinking a lot about consent and magic and what it all really means. I don't think I follow the standard Wiccan rules here.





Saijen SilverWolf1 wrote:

I, personally, use the Rede (With Harm to None)...in the way I choose to live (Do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Which is a the Christian version).
[sign in to see URL]

I don't think it means if someone is coming after you, physically, psychically, emotionally, [sign in to see URL] you're NOT supposed to protect yourself. I just think it means not going out of your way to harm something/one, just because you can.
Also, on the consent [sign in to see URL] has to be some leeway there as well. I won't do a love spell to bring a specific person to my 'client' (for lack of a better word), because, to me, that's messing with someone's free will. I don't want people messing with mine, so I don't mess with others. However, to do something to help open a person's eyes to a [sign in to see URL] may not be MY truth they end up seeing, so in that respect, I'm not messing with someone's free will. I'm not FORCING someone to see things how I see them. I'm simply asking for a truth to be revealed. The spell is on the revelation of the truth, not on the person/people.
Keeping in mind that you only want to do things that are not harmful (using how I explained that above), then asking for religious [sign in to see URL] spell should be put on the religious tolerance, and not on the people.
I'm not sure if I'm making much sense (kind of out of it today)...so, if I'm not, and you're not sure what I'm trying to say, please ask, and I'll try to explain further.

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Re: EtPP: Pagan Ethics


Saijen, I think your application of the Rede is quite appropriate. However, I've heard of people (actually seen them post things online, read their words in books, etc) that follow it to the UTMOST - as in, complete literal translation. These are usually vegans who stress out about offending even the worst of mankind. I just don't understand how that is healthy - and I'm sure no one here thinks it is.

I think the book did a disservice to brand-new-pagans by presenting the Rede first as a universal that all pagans follow, but then also as a black-and-white rule with out any real discussion of how it pertains to real life. Of course, very few people actually want to harm someone else. Honestly, that's a no-brainer. I think a whole chapter could have been dedicated to discussing what it truly means to follow the Rede in daily life.

I'm still struggling with the consent thing. I need to think about it more. I don't think magic works on people that aren't open to it first of all, so that sort of makes the point a bit moot. But I felt like the author was implying something like "as long as you follow the Rede, you can do magic without someones consent". But I wish he had just come out and said that!
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Re: EtPP: Pagan Ethics


I agree that a great deal was left to the imagination on the Rede, as posed in the book.

And, trust me, magic CAN work on those who don't believe in it. The only time I ever did anything that I did not have consent of both parties, was the one time what I did worked the best.
I had the consent of my daughter, but not of her husband (now, ex#2). It was a separation spell, but, how I worded it was 'If it is meant to be, allow it, with harm to none'. This was when we found out that the husand had physically abused my oldest [sign in to see URL] step-son. He ended up in jail (he admitted to it), and I moved my daughter and grandkids up here (300 miles away). The spell had worked, and he was anything but a believer in anything like magic. So, yes, it can/does work on even those who do not believe.
Because I did not have his consent, I did, as noted above, word it so that the spell was not on him, but that truth would be revealed, and whatever that truth was, if they were not meant to stay together, that the truth would separate [sign in to see URL], if they were meant to stay together, the truth would only serve to bring them closer together. It's really difficult to work around the consent thing [sign in to see URL] when you have a certain outcome you want to happen. You have to watch putting too much of YOUR wants into the spell, and focus on what is right. Thankfully, in this case, the outcome I was hoping for (minus the abuse of my grandson) did come to fruition. I've since done one other such spell, but it wasn't a specific separation... it was an either/or type [sign in to see URL], again, what I hope would happen, did. They stayed [sign in to see URL] to my [sign in to see URL] things are being worked on and worked out.
Magic is interesting, but it's also very [sign in to see URL]'s one reason you have to have some ethics in play. Just like you would in anything else you do.

I've also heard, and read those who think to kill a deer, rabbit, cow, pig, etc, to use for [sign in to see URL] take that as a HUGE slight on Paganism. The 'harm none' [sign in to see URL] they really thought about it, is a guide, not an exact law. ... Without people who hunted deer, or other animals, to be used for food, clothing and other things (do not waste what you kill), there would end up being an over-population, which would not be healthy for them (the animal) or for us.
And, if you really wanted to push some buttons... all plants are living things as well. You harm a tomato when you pluck it and cut it up. Or, pull up lettuce for a salad. [sign in to see URL] the grass! It depends on just how far you want to take it. People will take it just so far, but if you bring up mowing the yard, or cutting down and eating what you grow in your [sign in to see URL] ask them how they can condone the killing of THOSE things, but not a deer, cow, pig, etc. Most don't have an answer when you keep at them about plants also being living, breathing entities. Some will use the soul [sign in to see URL], how do we know a plant doesn't have a soul? I know it seems I've gone off topic, but I've not, really. Ethics encompasses so many issues, and many people see it differenlty in each area.
I can see doing a healing spell if someone were to say..."I wish I could get rid of this cough".... they've not give direct consent, but they have made it known they do not want the cough. In my opinion, in that case, it would be OK to do something to help them get rid of the [sign in to see URL], I'd still like to ask "well, would it be ok if I tried a spell to see if it would help?" Assuming they know who/what I am, and aren't afraid of me messing [sign in to see URL]> For someone like my Mom, who has no [sign in to see URL] may be inclined to just go ahead and do something to help, if she were to make a statement like that. I can't see that as messing with their free [sign in to see URL] have already said they want the cough gone, so, why not try to help? They'd ask their Christian friends for [sign in to see URL] not help where you can?

Does that make sense to you? Or, did I just confuse you more?

---
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
~~@Saijen@~~
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Re: EtPP: Pagan Ethics


No confusion! Good points.

About magic not working for those who don't believe. I think I need to be a bit more specific. The spell you worked was more about the SITUATION. It was almost like a spell to work on the energies that family shared. I guess I'm talking more about a spell to make someone do something that they have no intention of doing and they don't believe in magic. Eh, it's a bit grey I guess.

*I* have no real issue with getting consent to do magic. But I think that comes from my idea that I can't force someone to do something they don't want to do with a simple spell. My interpretation of what happened with your daughter was that her husband KNEW he had done wrong, felt guilty and needed an invisible kick in the rear to confess. If he had been smug about his actions and never wanted to come clean, I don't think that all the pagans in the world casting spells on him would have worked! That's my opinion though - I do realize that may not be a mainstream one. I don't really know.
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Re: EtPP: Pagan Ethics


[sign in to see URL] ex son-in-law had no intention of confessing! My grandson told one of his teachers that his step-dad had abused him, and she immediately took him to the school counselor who found out what had happened, called DCS, who in turn called my daughter. Ex SIL was confroted at his job, by police about the matter, and he confessed then.

If anything, the spell worked to get my grandson to expose the abuse, which in turn caused the separation. I just hate that there was any abuse at all, but I also know that I did not cause that.

I see what you're saying about not making someone do something they'd not do in reality, by way of a spell, if they don't believe in magic at all. I still don't know how true that [sign in to see URL] I may never know, so, I prefer to play it safe.

I had a girl come to me to ask me to do a love spell to make her boyfriend be more like a boyfriend. She felt she was losing him. I told her that I don't do spells that even remotely smack of making someone to something they may not want to [sign in to see URL] that I would do her a charm to bring her true love. That if her true love was this guy, [sign in to see URL] be it, but it may not be him. Not long after I gave her the charm, they broke [sign in to see URL] she was quickly dating someone [sign in to see URL] they are still [sign in to see URL] years later. I don't know if he is her true love, but the relationship has sure lasted a decent amount of time.

The charm was created using a pink heart made of rose quartz. I don't know if she still has it or not.

---
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
~~@Saijen@~~
5/7/2012, 3:34 am Link to this post Send Email to Saijen SilverWolf1   Send PM to Saijen SilverWolf1 Yahoo
 


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